Big Changes

[Chris]

Don't we already have that? What would be the difference, discussing features? Since it's pretty much all in speculation right now I think it should stick to one forum.

Exactly.

[Gerard]

I didn't say make it today. Everything about IV will be confirmed in a couple of months, and we'll know a hell of a lot more from all the previews and reviews in the weeks before the launch. So by then we should have a new facility for making gta-related suggestions to replace the then-defunct GTA wishlist. That's not an amazingly massive change, but just something we could tap into.

Sounds like you're just trying to prove me wrong or something - that's not the point here...

[Chris]

obviously we don't need GTA IV subforums yet, the game isn't out. There's no point. At least another 3 months before they even need to be made. This is absolutely obvious that this will happen and not something I need to be reminded about. I've been doing it like this for the last 3 GTA games. The week of release is when this will happen so everything is in place for the big day.

I already said I'm not making a gtanext forum 3 years early. It's pointless when GTA IV isn't out. If people really honestly do get tired of GTA IV so quickly that they feel the need to talk about the next game they can use the general gaming forum.

Well as soon as IV is out there's no point in a wishlist for it, except perhaps possible upgrades or episodic content for IV (which is 360 only) or modifications (which is PC-only).

When TGTAP was listed in that magazine, they specifically cited the imagination of our members - why not tap onto that and allow a small subforum for wishes and things (would probably be bigger than the classics) - you could even stop people creating topics in there and force replies only. I'd bet hundreds of members would be willing to post in there - it's always massively fun thinking up what you want.

Well that's good but not allowing people to create their own topics doesn't allow very much freedom at all. And a post-all topic would become bloated and too big to look through at everything. Since there's just a few months until release I don't see why it can't go in the current forum. Otherwise it's just going to stay as it is now with apparently crappy topics. If decent ones were made with good content they'll naturally bump down the crappy topics. win-win.

[Gerard]

Yeah okay, however you do it, just make sure there's still an outlet for the creativity ALL gta fans harbour.

Although these changes should all be discussed publicly (like this topic). Why can't the admins/staff use the suggestions forum too to get the opinion of members before making changes?

[Chris]

because no forum is a democracy. not all members are smart and would suggest ridiculous ideas. most people here have actually made decent discussion thankfully. obviously it takes staff to implement changes but often the opinion of members doesn't matter as it's something we need to do, but sometimes, like this time, it does.

damn my shift key is broken i cant type capital letters btw. ;9 or even smilies

[Gerard]

Usually have two Shift keys? Stop changing the subject!

I think this topic proves our members are actually pretty good at helping to make decisions. The staff don't have to do everything the members say (obviously) but they can get a good feel for consensus, and some members will actually be able to improve the ideas. I think you need to trust the members more.

I'm not suggesting we be a democracy, I'm saying that more people make the decisions, thats the staff are more open with decisions, and that more members have an input into the ideas that shape this forum. Not a silly suggestion, because (since you like comparisons) thats how large companies and sites like Wikipedia work.

[Chris]

Yeah but just because a majority of members all say something doesn't mean it's a good idea, was my point I was leading up to. And as for the wiki comparison... well that's what they do, their survival depends on the community that post.

[NSanityHD]

@ Chris: Use the button under "Enter".

[Gerard]

Sorry there are some people I haven't replied to:

@ Gerard: Agreed!

We need to gain more members aswell. Instead of fighting and spamming like some members do.

But how are we going to improve TGTAP is members keep fighting? Maybe, they should read the rules more often like most of us do, and like I do.

And how are we going to improve if some of the members Spam most of the time?

Well this is the same problem that all public forums have, especially those that appeal to young children. We could take the hardline nazi tactic of warning/suspending/banning members that fight - but to be honest that doesn't help anyone. The members will just make a new account or decide they hate us and come back spamming en masse.

We need to show our members that spamming isn't what we do here. It isn't big, it isn't clever, it isn't cool, it won't earn you respect. I reckon a lot of members get confused that we seem to encourage FFAG topics and flaming in the warzone, but then yell at them when they do it slightly differently (eg outside warzone).

So we discourage spamming/flaming and encourage other forms of discussion and problem solving, eg just not replying to them (or rising to bait), or encouraging long discussions rather than small shitty personal attacks (your mum...)

I can see what you mean, but overall, around 60% of members DON'T read the rules, and that's what leads to these problems. Some of us do and we acknowledge it, but sometimes people never use it to guide themselves to becoming a good member. I think the majority of us don’t know the rules well, but they can follow it without reading it because they might have recent experience on the forums. If they could not find the rules, it’s located on top near the banner’s header.

Don't pull out made-up statistics lol - just say "most". You're right though, most members wouldn't bother reading the rules because they're mostly the same wherever you go. Only 15% of the rules are different to those that appear on 83% of other forums and 94% of GTA-related forums. The only rules that need to be listed prominently are the 15% that are unique to us.

The rules do need a rewrite to be more informative, helpful and user-friendly (so the newbies can&will read them), and likewise the terms that you agree to when you register. Not a big job, but again that is something that could be done effectively with a bit of group discussion.

There's only one thing that is annoying me. The warzone, most people make pointless arguments that don't go anywhere. The hate topic is stupid, 'who do you hate the most?'. That just sparks more fighting, with is pointless, the 'What pisses you off?' is so that people can relive themselves without saying names...

And isn't it suppose to be a RP area as well? Well I tried to bring RP back, and it got put down the list and forgotten about by flame topics.

The RP idea failed because nobody pushed it. The name was changed and a description was added (maybe even a pinned topic) but it wasn't as if Chris and the other staff joined in the RP and helped it along and showed members how it should be done. Staff have that nasty ability to solve their arguments with the banhammer (not that we do that here).

We do need somewhere where you can express your opinion and let off a bit of steam. This is currently in the form of flaming, and that's about it. If we pushed RP, that's a nice way to do it (for some members), but perhaps things like an agony aunt (personal-advice-giving topic) would be useful?

Anybody got any ideas for that?

TM, most forums have different rules to others. But I seriously think ALL members should keep track of the rules in-case they change. I read the rules nearly everyday when I am active. I don't know why others don't. I bet when warner registered, he only registered for the mods etc etc, then Spammed, argued and being disrespectful to members and staff. Thats perthetic.

The rules don't change except maybe a little bit twice a year or so, then they get rewritten every couple of years. They need to be more user-friendly, and constantly adjusted to fully reflect how we expect our members to act. Maybe we could make little cards of rules that you can show (like a bbcode tag?) just with a handful of bullet points of the important rules, then this can be shown all over the site (in signatures) and used in topics to show members what the rules are. See the red box at the bottom of GTW's Rules.

Chris - suddenly your shift key works? Or you found the other one? Or you using OSK?

Our survival also depends on the community here - I don't see why we can't involve them in the decisions that affect them.

[Chris]

Already said I even RP'ed despite the fact I hate it to help it along, which I did for like 2 weeks before it became apparent not many other people were interested.

[Gerard]

Haha never read your RPs. Maybe there are some better ideas than RPing then? Bit silly to have roleplay with no role to play except "me hating/flaming you"

[Jared]

Kinda like GTAF really, you don't see adamcs and illspirit participating in flamewars and the like...

Might want too double check that fact.

[Chris]

Kinda like GTAF really, you don't see adamcs and illspirit participating in flamewars and the like...

Might want too double check that fact.

I just went to check actually, seems the forum is gone (I guess with all the gang forums they took offline). So yeah, they don't have one anymore so I can't prove what I said.

Is this what we should do with ours then? Take it offline? Would that work as a way of ridding all the crap? Or try to make it RP only? In all honesty do many people enjoy RP'ing ouside of actual RPG's? I remember Gerard you called it childish and silly. Admittedly our push for it wasn't great, but I didn't expect for it to become uninteresting for members so quickly.

[Gerard]

Howabout you make a big topic where members can all put their suggestions for solving arguments and letting off steam - seeing what they would like in the forum instead of an unused RP zone. Obviously the staff (as a team) would pick and develop the best ideas, but at least steal the ideas from the members first, as they have as much a chance of having a good idea as we do.

[Chris]

Kinda like GTAF really, you don't see adamcs and illspirit participating in flamewars and the like...

Might want too double check that fact.

I just went to check actually, seems the forum is gone (I guess with all the gang forums they took offline). So yeah, they don't have one anymore so I can't prove what I said.

Is this what we should do with ours then? Take it offline? Would that work as a way of ridding all the crap? Or try to make it RP only? In all honesty do many people enjoy RP'ing ouside of actual RPG's? I remember Gerard you called it childish and silly. Admittedly our push for it wasn't great, but I didn't expect for it to become uninteresting for members so quickly.

Actually you know what, I just answered my own question here. After thinking about it for a few minutes.

I think removing the warzone forum altogether is the best idea. Does anybody disagree?

We don't need members arguing anywhere on the forums, not even a topic for it. They can PM each other to sort it out. If one of them doesn't want to be PM'ed then BLOCK the member, that feature is there for that very reason!

[Jared]

I don't think getting rid of entirely is the best idea, I mean it's uniquely us. We've always had it, and I think having something nobody else has is good. But maybe a topic or some other form such as Gerard suggested would work more efficiently.

[Chris]

Edited my post to justify after you just posted Jared.

Yeah it wasn't unique though, it was when we were friends with GTABoards and members from there suggested we have one too, so we did. This is one of those decisions where I think despite what members say it is actually best if we remove the whole place for arguments altogether. I'll see what they say anyway.

[Gerard]

Isn't that just pushing the contents of there into the rest of the forum? Our members are used to flaming, they need to learn why not to do it, instead of just being punished for not doing something they were allowed to do yesterday.

But yeah get rid of it. Additional/replacement outlets for energy, anger and creative juices required though.

[Chris]

Then move the members you hate topic to fun and games, that way their post count doesn't increase as well.

[TM™]

Some members do RP in the warzone (E.g. Dazza) and I think that's good as long as most of the members keep it all up. I think we shouldn't remove the warzone unless in the future it turns out fatal. Some members live in the warzone which is okay, but I think they shouldn't argue as much, but resolve the problem (But they could just do that through PM), but some members like arguments to go through public and let other members judge.

I think that would be the only unique forum that makes TGTAP the TGTAP. As well as the download database, we need more features that can make us big (GTA Video Walkthrough perhaps?)

[Chris]

Then if after it is removed, RP is a popular request, we'll make an RP forum. For RP only of course.

[Gerard]

TM you're right - we need to be unique. We are just a medium-sized forum that is almost identical to all the other GTA forums around, and we really need to change to become anything special. Video walkthroughs are a prime example of the kind of thing we need to be doing. Not RP.

I think most of you missed one of Misho's points a while ago. Chris said that people shouldn't need rewarding for helping with GTA, because that's what this forum was designed for. The problem is that that nobody IS helping with GTA, so we obviously need to do something to encourage people to post more about GTA. A small part of that is discouraging people from doing other stuff, but positive reinforcement has to be the biggest part.

Chris - you're getting the idea. I'm not suggesting that we become entirely communist and free where everyone gets a vote and decides on the changes, but you still have to listen to your members.

[NSanityHD]

Well, I certainly like that idea Chris.

[Angry Gorilla]

The RP idea might work, but then some idiot might post things like "Ultra Mega Nuke on Alucardo THE END"

What would we do then?

[Gycu]

Well this is a GTA forum, I think everything has been discussed and rediscussed, it's kinda boring, nothing happens, no news from the makers of GTA that's the main reason this forum is almost dead ... I haven't started a topic since 6th of October because it is really nothing to talk about, I only post in the Fun And Games section because on the other sections is almost no activity and I wanna get reply to my posts, I have to wait like 3 or 4 days to get it ... Good topics die slowly so do we ...

And about the new members, I noticed just few of them, most of them ask for help and after that they leave ... or some of them join TGTAP to get mods ( I have a friend here that joined just to download mods for GTA SA he is a GTA maniac too )

Yep, it was a lot more cooler when I joined ... TGTAP had something special, that's why I stayed ...

And is it only me but I think that some of us *scare* the new members, they commit a mistake and all of you guys start flaming wars ... and they leave ...