Gerard Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Huck - That's fair enough. But all I can say is that genuine love really does exist between some same-sex people. I know it is going to be really hard for any straight person to understand - but to be honest I can't understand why straight men like women, that makes no sense to me. We can't understand why we feel differently, but I can assure you that it is the exact same feelings you have for women that I have for guys. Its the most raw and natural thing in the world. Huck - Do you honestly believe that someone could do something to you that would turn you gay? I don't think anything could turn me straight. It's not as if I spent a lot of time around gay people as a kid and copied them. Most people feel it long before they know what it is, including me. Harwood - You say it's not normal because society doesn't think it is normal. I was asking why it was decided to be declared wrong in the first place? Long before laws were passed, long before the Bible said anything about it. TM - "I don't really care about Gay Marriage to be honest" - great, most people don't, and most people shouldn't. It wouldn't ever affect 95% of people. But actively denying it, making laws against it, just because you don't like the thought of it, that is brutal and evil. TM - "Most of my mates aren't really use to seeing gay people kissing" - neither am I. I don't see people doing it much, it's not as if I live in a gay city where it is normal. And because I know people like raybob will murder me, I don't go around doing it in the street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franswurst Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 TM - "Most of my mates aren't really use to seeing gay people kissing" - neither am I. I don't see people doing it much, it's not as if I live in a gay city where it is normal. And because I know people like raybob will murder me, I don't go around doing it in the street. Adding to the kissing, I don't want to see homosexual couples like straight up making out on the streets either, but that's because I don't want to see heterosexual couples do it either, I mean if you wanna stick your tongue down your partners throat, don't do it where everyone has to see you, lol. Although I guess I have done that before already as well with Girlfriends, but I try not to do it. But otherwise, what do I care if someone is gay, straight or bi, it doesn't change what kind of a person they are, it just means they have a different sexual preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM™ Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 TM - "Most of my mates aren't really use to seeing gay people kissing" - neither am I. I don't see people doing it much, it's not as if I live in a gay city where it is normal. And because I know people like raybob will murder me, I don't go around doing it in the street. Adding to the kissing, I don't want to see homosexual couples like straight up making out on the streets either, but that's because I don't want to see heterosexual couples do it either, I mean if you wanna stick your tongue down your partners throat, don't do it where everyone has to see you, lol. Although I guess I have done that before already as well with Girlfriends, but I try not to do it. But otherwise, what do I care if someone is gay, straight or bi, it doesn't change what kind of a person they are, it just means they have a different sexual preference. Pretty much sums everything up for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slyde Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Ray Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 No, but I don't attack them, and I would appreciate it if you would stop attacking me. You don't attack them...hmmm. Well homosexuals don't have the same beliefs as you...but you're saying that they can't get married. So you're attacking their beliefs. What beliefs of yours am I attacking? Never said they can't get married, just said I don't think they should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaz The Great Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 No, but I don't attack them, and I would appreciate it if you would stop attacking me. You don't attack them...hmmm. Well homosexuals don't have the same beliefs as you...but you're saying that they can't get married. So you're attacking their beliefs. What beliefs of yours am I attacking? Never said they can't get married, just said I don't think they should. The only reason you AREN'T saying they CAN'T get married is because you can't. If congress walked up to you and told you that you had the power to il/legalize gay marriage, you'd make it illegal before even thinking about it. YOU'RE discriminating just as much as we are, only we have valid reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harwood Butcher Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Harwood - You say it's not normal because society doesn't think it is normal. I was asking why it was decided to be declared wrong in the first place? Long before laws were passed, long before the Bible said anything about it. Well see, now you're switching it up and asking why people decided or declared it is "wrong" instead of why it's not "normal". The reason people believed it to be wrong was because reproduction doesn't work that way. Simple as that. They weren't as worried about "love" as people are now. Never said they can't get married, just said I don't think they should. Yeah, you didn't say that they can't get married because you're not the one that could decided that, but THINKING that they shouldn't is still attacking their beliefs if we're using your logic of attacking one's beliefs. All we've been doing is stating what we THINK about your beliefs/views and you're saying we're attacking them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerard Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Okay now we're getting somewhere - thats the most common explanation. Following that rule, if reproduction doesn't work, they shouldn't have sex. So infertile people shouldn't have sex? Old people? But rape is fine because it might make a baby? And did you know that in Palestine, female homosexuality is legal, but male homosexuality is not. Just cos the politicians like to watch a bit of lesbo action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstarrem Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 While I'm completely un biased about religion now, everyone living in America has to realize that the country was brought up with Christianity. Which basically means, at least in my opinion, favor the Christians more. In recent years that's obviously changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harwood Butcher Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Okay now we're getting somewhere - thats the most common explanation.Following that rule, if reproduction doesn't work, they shouldn't have sex. So infertile people shouldn't have sex? Old people? But rape is fine because it might make a baby? And did you know that in Iran, female homosexuality is legal, but male homosexuality is not. Just cos the politicians like to watch a bit of lesbo action. LOL, you're talking about "Long before laws were passed, long before the Bible said anything about it."...and that was a long fucking time ago. Do you really think they knew who was infertile then??? I don't think so. You're starting to mix and match this shit to try and make a point, but that's not needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerard Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Lol I'm not trying to catch you out. I'm just trying to see the logic behind people who currently think it is wrong. Why have societies' attitudes changed towards some things (class, race, gender) but not others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franswurst Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) While I'm completely un biased about religion now, everyone living in America has to realize that the country was brought up with Christianity. Which basically means, at least in my opinion, favor the Christians more. In recent years that's obviously changed. You are quite right on this, which is, to be honest, one of the biggest problem in America, I don't mean to offend any Americans here, but America is one of the most intolerant countries in the world, mainly because a lot of Americans know nothing about the world, they never leave the country, hell they don't even have a passport, all they believe in are their Christian values and what the media tells them to believe. Again, not attacking Americans here, a lot of countries have that problem, but for a nation that's supposed to be "the greatest nation in the world" the US has a shit load of problems, intolerance being a big one. I completely understand why many people (mainly Religious) would be against Gay Marriage, or Homosexuality in general, but they need to learn that their scripture is based on something thousands of years ago, and that common sense alone should already dictate that everyone has the same rights, and should be treated equally. Edited January 28, 2009 by Franswurst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Ray Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I'm curious. If you were to know of a man who was gay, and was Christian, how would your belief and view stand? I would accept his beliefs, and I wouldn't try to change them, but I wouldn't agree with them either. No, but I don't attack them, and I would appreciate it if you would stop attacking me. You don't attack them...hmmm. Well homosexuals don't have the same beliefs as you...but you're saying that they can't get married. So you're attacking their beliefs. What beliefs of yours am I attacking? Never said they can't get married, just said I don't think they should. The only reason you AREN'T saying they CAN'T get married is because you can't. If congress walked up to you and told you that you had the power to il/legalize gay marriage, you'd make it illegal before even thinking about it. YOU'RE discriminating just as much as we are, only we have valid reasons. I have a valid reason too, but it goes along with my belief. May not be yours, but it doesn't make it wrong. I am against gay marriage because it says specifically no in the bible. If you're an atheist/ agnostic, etc., then gay marriage would be fine in your point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerard Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I would accept his beliefs, and I wouldn't try to change them, but I wouldn't agree with them either. Okay - but do you agree with the laws banning these things that don't affect you? Like I don't like pineapple. I don't want to ban it, but I just don't want anything to do with it. If someone else likes pineapple, fine, that isn't a problem. The entire discussion about Gay Marriage is not whether you agree with it, it's not whether you think it's right. If you hate it, that's not a problem. It's just whether you should ban them from doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harwood Butcher Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Lol I'm not trying to catch you out. I'm just trying to see the logic behind people who currently think it is wrong. Why have societies' attitudes changed towards some things (class, race, gender) but not others. Bold: Then why are you asking me? Let me ask you something. Do you think that homosexuals should have been given rights before african americans or women? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Ray Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I would accept his beliefs, and I wouldn't try to change them, but I wouldn't agree with them either. Okay - but do you agree with the laws banning these things that don't affect you? Like I don't like pineapple. I don't want to ban it, but I just don't want anything to do with it. If someone else likes pineapple, fine, that isn't a problem. The entire discussion about Gay Marriage is not whether you agree with it, it's not whether you think it's right. If you hate it, that's not a problem. It's just whether you should ban them from doing it. I don't really think we should ban it.... I just absolutely hate it and think it's wrong. (According to my beliefs) People who aren't Christian probably shouldn't have to abide by that rule. Lol I'm not trying to catch you out. I'm just trying to see the logic behind people who currently think it is wrong. Why have societies' attitudes changed towards some things (class, race, gender) but not others. Bold: Then why are you asking me? Let me ask you something. Do you think that homosexuals should have been given rights before african americans or women? No. Gays in my opinion shouldn't be given every right that straights have, marriage, etc., but I believe that women and other races are 100% equal to all. (Except for abortion, in my opinion) That is all part of my Reformed Christian (Pentecostal) beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harwood Butcher Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I don't really think we should ban it....I just absolutely hate it and think it's wrong. (According to my beliefs) People who aren't Christian probably shouldn't have to abide by that rule. The way your wording is, it sounds like you're saying you have no choice, that it's just your beliefs. No. Gays in my opinion shouldn't be given every right that straights have, marriage, etc., but I believe that women and other races are 100% equal to all. (Except for abortion, in my opinion) That is all part of my Reformed Christian (Pentecostal) beliefs. I wasn't asking if they should have rights, I was asking who should have gotten rights first, which was actually a question for Gerard...not you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Ray Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I don't really think we should ban it....I just absolutely hate it and think it's wrong. (According to my beliefs) People who aren't Christian probably shouldn't have to abide by that rule. The way your wording is, it sounds like you're saying you have no choice, that it's just your beliefs. No. Gays in my opinion shouldn't be given every right that straights have, marriage, etc., but I believe that women and other races are 100% equal to all. (Except for abortion, in my opinion) That is all part of my Reformed Christian (Pentecostal) beliefs. I wasn't asking if they should have rights, I was asking who should have gotten rights first, which was actually a question for Gerard...not you. Yeah pretty much, I can't do anything about it. And sorry, I didn't realize the question was for Gerard, but I do believe that women and other races should be 100% equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harwood Butcher Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Yeah pretty much, I can't do anything about it. ...What the hell do you mean you can't do anything about it. What the hell happened to this? My parents believe in two separate religions, my Dad Reformed Christian, and my Mom Old Christian. I have my own beliefs, and we sometimes get in fights because of our differences in beliefs. For example, my Mom is a Conservative Populist. Doesn't mean I agree with everything she says just because she's my Mom. Also, I thank them for bringing me up in a Christian home. I thought you said you have your own beliefs...If you have your own beliefs then you've made your own choices. Your post are contradicting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franswurst Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) How the fuck can you say gays shouldn't have the same rights as every other person? What makes them different apart from the fact that they like the same sex? They are people like you and me. Being homosexual does NOT define who you are, its just a sexual preference but it doesn't make you a good/bad friendly/unfriendly, and whatever person. @Harwood Butcher: I know the question was directed at Gerrard, but I thought I'd give my thoughts on it too, now I had written out a nice paragraph on this, but when I finished I realized that actually if I think about it, that's a stupid question to ask (not calling you stupid, just in general the question itself), all three groups should have had the same rights as everyone else to begin with. I mean, again we're all the same we may have different skin colors, sexual preferences, accents, or whatever else, but in the end, aren't we all human? Edited January 28, 2009 by Franswurst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerard Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Harwood - Depends what rights you're talking about. If you're talking about basic individual rights, freedom, voting etc - then homosexuals have never been denied it. If you mean marriage and adoption, then black people or women were never denied it. In some countries you get thrown in jail or killed if anyone finds out that you're gay. That's just obscene. If you're asking whether gay marriage should be legal before apartheid ended, I don't think that. Individual rights come first, then the additional stuff. Just long as you don't kill me just because of who I love. Yes it would be very nice to be able to marry and adopt, and I see no reason why we should not be allowed to do that, but the other stuff comes first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaz The Great Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 While I'm completely un biased about religion now, everyone living in America has to realize that the country was brought up with Christianity. Which basically means, at least in my opinion, favor the Christians more. In recent years that's obviously changed. You are quite right on this, which is, to be honest, one of the biggest problem in America, I don't mean to offend any Americans here, but America is one of the most intolerant countries in the world, mainly because a lot of Americans know nothing about the world, they never leave the country, hell they don't even have a passport, all they believe in are their Christian values and what the media tells them to believe. Again, not attacking Americans here, a lot of countries have that problem, but for a nation that's supposed to be "the greatest nation in the world" the US has a shit load of problems, intolerance being a big one. I completely understand why many people (mainly Religious) would be against Gay Marriage, or Homosexuality in general, but they need to learn that their scripture is based on something thousands of years ago, and that common sense alone should already dictate that everyone has the same rights, and should be treated equally. Dude.... Chestnut and I are totally planning on moving to Germany((99.9% because we want away from this hellhole))..... We can bunk with you, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franswurst Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 While I'm completely un biased about religion now, everyone living in America has to realize that the country was brought up with Christianity. Which basically means, at least in my opinion, favor the Christians more. In recent years that's obviously changed. You are quite right on this, which is, to be honest, one of the biggest problem in America, I don't mean to offend any Americans here, but America is one of the most intolerant countries in the world, mainly because a lot of Americans know nothing about the world, they never leave the country, hell they don't even have a passport, all they believe in are their Christian values and what the media tells them to believe. Again, not attacking Americans here, a lot of countries have that problem, but for a nation that's supposed to be "the greatest nation in the world" the US has a shit load of problems, intolerance being a big one. I completely understand why many people (mainly Religious) would be against Gay Marriage, or Homosexuality in general, but they need to learn that their scripture is based on something thousands of years ago, and that common sense alone should already dictate that everyone has the same rights, and should be treated equally. Dude.... Chestnut and I are totally planning on moving to Germany((99.9% because we want away from this hellhole))..... We can bunk with you, right? Haha, sure but, um, certain 'services' will be required to...you know "pay rent", lol. Gerard in a way also strengthened my argument, because you can't compare the rights of the three groups because they weren't all discriminated against in the same way. But it also brings up an interesting question, all of you who are against gay marriage being legal, are you also against homosexuals being allowed to vote, or work in the same place as you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harwood Butcher Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Harwood - Depends what rights you're talking about. If you're talking about basic individual rights, freedom, voting etc - then homosexuals have never been denied it. If you mean marriage and adoption, then black people or women were never denied it.In some countries you get thrown in jail or killed if anyone finds out that you're gay. That's just obscene. If you're asking whether gay marriage should be legal before apartheid ended, I don't think that. Individual rights come first, then the additional stuff. Just long as you don't kill me just because of who I love. Yes it would be very nice to be able to marry and adopt, and I see no reason why we should not be allowed to do that, but the other stuff comes first. You said, "Why have societies' attitudes changed towards some things (class, race, gender) but not others." I was trying to some what make a point. Race and gender are things we can't control and we shouldn't be limited in rights because of that. Homosexuals on the other hand had the choice between being straight or gay. Now I realize that the majority of the people here think that homosexuals don't have a choice and I believe that to an extent, but they have a lot more control over that than people of a certain race and or gender. Society has gotten past the extremely stupid idea that race and gender matter, but they haven't gotten past homosexuality and that's the next step, not saying that looking down on homosexuals isn't stupid. As a society we have to realize that personal choice shouldn't matter if it doesn't effect others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Harwood - Depends what rights you're talking about. If you're talking about basic individual rights, freedom, voting etc - then homosexuals have never been denied it. If you mean marriage and adoption, then black people or women were never denied it.In some countries you get thrown in jail or killed if anyone finds out that you're gay. That's just obscene. If you're asking whether gay marriage should be legal before apartheid ended, I don't think that. Individual rights come first, then the additional stuff. Just long as you don't kill me just because of who I love. Yes it would be very nice to be able to marry and adopt, and I see no reason why we should not be allowed to do that, but the other stuff comes first. You said, "Why have societies' attitudes changed towards some things (class, race, gender) but not others." I was trying to some what make a point. Race and gender are things we can't control and we shouldn't be limited in rights because of that. Homosexuals on the other hand had the choice between being straight or gay. Now I realize that the majority of the people here think that homosexuals don't have a choice and I believe that to an extent, but they have a lot more control over that than people of a certain race and or gender. Society has gotten past the extremely stupid idea that race and gender matter, but they haven't gotten past homosexuality and that's the next step, not saying that looking down on homosexuals isn't stupid. As a society we have to realize that personal choice shouldn't matter if it doesn't effect others. We're all human, so I guess hetero people also have a choice but unlike gay people they have more rights, it's simply not fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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