Gay Marriage

[Franswurst]

Harwood - Depends what rights you're talking about. If you're talking about basic individual rights, freedom, voting etc - then homosexuals have never been denied it. If you mean marriage and adoption, then black people or women were never denied it.

In some countries you get thrown in jail or killed if anyone finds out that you're gay. That's just obscene.

If you're asking whether gay marriage should be legal before apartheid ended, I don't think that. Individual rights come first, then the additional stuff. Just long as you don't kill me just because of who I love. Yes it would be very nice to be able to marry and adopt, and I see no reason why we should not be allowed to do that, but the other stuff comes first.

You said, "Why have societies' attitudes changed towards some things (class, race, gender) but not others." I was trying to some what make a point. Race and gender are things we can't control and we shouldn't be limited in rights because of that. Homosexuals on the other hand had the choice between being straight or gay. Now I realize that the majority of the people here think that homosexuals don't have a choice and I believe that to an extent, but they have a lot more control over that than people of a certain race and or gender.

Society has gotten past the extremely stupid idea that race and gender matter, but they haven't gotten past homosexuality and that's the next step, not saying that looking down on homosexuals isn't stupid. As a society we have to realize that personal choice shouldn't matter if it doesn't effect others.

Let me ask you something, have you ever been in love? If so then you would know you can't control love, it just happens. I believe with homosexuality this is exactly the same, I hate people saying homosexuals have control over it, at least to an extent, no 99.9% don't, they just feel the way they feel. I myself am not homosexual, so I can't say what you feel like, but as I mentioned I could imagine it feels like falling in love, it just happens, and you can try to not let it happen, and you can try to tell yourself something else, but when you're in love you're in love. And when you like someone from the same sex, then you like someone from the same sex.

Also, even IF homosexuals could "control" it, who is anyone to say that they should? If someone chooses to decide they like the same sex, why is that wrong? Because religion says so? We shouldn't base our life on something that could just as well be fiction.

[Harwood Butcher]

Let me ask you something, have you ever been in love? If so then you would know you can't control love, it just happens. I believe with homosexuality this is exactly the same, I hate people saying homosexuals have control over it, at least to an extent, no 99.9% don't, they just feel the way they feel. I myself am not homosexual, so I can't say what you feel like, but as I mentioned I could imagine it feels like falling in love, it just happens, and you can try to not let it happen, and you can try to tell yourself something else, but when you're in love you're in love. And when you like someone from the same sex, then you like someone from the same sex.

Also, even IF homosexuals could "control" it, who is anyone to say that they should? If someone chooses to decide they like the same sex, why is that wrong? Because religion says so? We shouldn't base our life on something that could just as well be fiction.

You took my comment too literally and you didn't even answer the question that you steered away from with another question. Not only that, but it wasn't a question for you in the first place.

Where did I say that you could control your love for someone? I did not say that, you misinterpreted what I was trying to say. You're forgetting that I'm for gay marriage, I'm just trying to explain why others might think that certain things aren't right and I'm also trying to explain why they think that way from a sociological stand point.

So don't start trying to throw facts at me because I'm already for it. What is that saying, "You're preaching to the choir"...if that even applies here.

[Franswurst]

I was using "can't control love" as an example for homosexuals not being able to control the way they feel because in your above post, you said you believe homosexuals do have control over it to some extent.

My last post was just directed at the "can control it part". I have seen in your other posts that you are for gay marriage, I just wanted to address the last part. And maybe I did misinterpret you or take you too literal on that, and if I did, I apologize, I just take issue with people saying "they can control it" (even though I know you said you think they can control it somewhat, in comparison to someone who is born with a different skin color), I guess I was just lashing out in general at the people who do completely think being gay is a choice and they can control it, and what not.

And I know the question wasn't directed at me, but in an open discussion others are bound to get involved.

[Harwood Butcher]

I was using "can't control love" as an example for homosexuals not being able to control the way they feel because in your above post, you said you believe homosexuals do have control over it to some extent.

My last post was just directed at the "can control it part". I have seen in your other posts that you are for gay marriage, I just wanted to address the last part. And maybe I did misinterpret you or take you too literal on that, and if I did, I apologize, I just take issue with people saying "they can control it" (even though I know you said you think they can control it somewhat, in comparison to someone who is born with a different skin color), I guess I was just lashing out in general at the people who do completely think being gay is a choice and they can control it, and what not.

And I know the question wasn't directed at me, but in an open discussion others are bound to get involved.

The thing is, being gay isn't a crime. What people are pissed off at is letting them get married. I forget who it was, but someone actually gave good reasons as to why some people think they shouldn't get married, but raybob's view is that they shouldn't get married...just because, which isn't a good answer.

Search through the topic and you'll find the post. I think the person was actually for gay marriage, but they were pointing out why some people don't want gay marriage, which were semi-legit reasons that made a hell of a lot more sense than raybob's.

Edited January 29, 2009 by Harwood Butcher

[rappo]

I realized last November, when gay marriage was banned in California, that homosexuals will never get equal treatment as long as there is ignorance about homosexuality. It's really sad for me to see people use "they chose to be gay, they don't need rights" as an excuse, when it's untrue for nearly the entire homosexual population. I don't have a problem with legistlation being passed that I am against as long as it was a popular opinion and in this case, it was. But when the majority of that popular opinion is just misinformed, it is a tragedy. The only problem is, there is no way to spread the truth to stubborn people. This doesn't necessarily affect me as I'm not gay, but just because I'm not affected doesn't mean I shouldn't be concerned. There was a big emphasis placed on Black voters causing the ban in CA. A reporter asked a Black woman who voted for the gay marriage ban how she could deny them of their rights when Black people fought for civil rights for the greater part of this century. Although definitely not a representative of the entire Black community, the woman responded with "I didn't choose to be Black - they chose to be gay, and if they don't like our laws then they should stop being gay!" And I have a feeling this is why most people are turned off by gay marriage - misinformation.

[Bear]

I honestly can not see why people can not all have the same rights. We are all human, gay people don't choose to be gay but it all means is someone is attracted to a different sex. Say someone was only attracted to green eyed people, thats how they feel and thats what they feel is right for them, so does that mean they should have lesser rights then someone who prefers blue eyes.

Also does it make any difference to anyone if gay people can get married. I am a bit iffy about gay priests when the Bible is against it. But again I don't see the Bible as a literal history of what happened and what must be followed. I see the Bible as stories to help guide people and show morals.

I'm not sure if it was in this topic where Gerard said about lesbians not being banned in some countries. It was never illegal in the UK as Queen Victoria said "Ladies do not do such things". Just adding a bit of history there.

I just don't understand peoples ignorance for black people and gay people. Black people are black because the pigmant in their skin to protect them from the sun so it evolution. Does that make them wrong and mean they shouldn't have the same rights? Of course not. Gay people are just attracted to the same sex, again big deal. I just do not see whats so wrong about seeing two people who love each other promise to spend the rest of lives together. Anyone should have the right to do so, no matter what it says in the Bible.

[Gerard]

Firstly, being gay IS a crime in a lot of the world ->

Yellow, orange, red or brown is where homosexuality is illegal. Brown is the death penalty. Blues are different types of marriage or civil unions that are recognised.

Secondly, being gay or straight is not a choice. At all. Trust me - if I could fall in love with a woman my life would be SO much easier. But I just can't - I have zero attraction to them. Do you reckon you could fall in love with a man just because someone else told you to?

However ACTING on your love is a choice. You could choose not to have sex, not to get married. Exactly the same for both straight and gay. However that would be a pretty shit life if you weren't allowed to love anyone at all (since the ones you like are illegal, and you simply dont want the others). Love is the most basic of all human emotions - its the long-term reason behind almost everything we do. If you ban people from loving anyone, you might as well kill them.

Bear - another curious thing is that, until recently, the age of consent for a gay couple was higher than that of straight couples. That's not the worst thing in the world, but it's just another example of how homosexual love is viewed differently (takes you 2 more years to be sure you're gay than it does to be sure you're straight).

Seriously, watch this video:

[Franswurst]

That's a great video, really a nicely done satire. I can't imagine what it must be like for homosexuals to always have to hear these questions, I mean if people kept asking me that, I would seriously punch someone out.

That map is interesting, its no surprise to me that the countries marked brown and orange and stuff are mainly African or Middle Eastern, but I feel that a lot of people of the blue countries, or other countries would also love to make it illegal but because they are more "civilized" they know they can't.

And you're so right about love, nobody can control who they may fall in love with, it just happens whether its a man, woman, short person, tall person, fat person, and so on. Its like defining beauty, no one can really do it, since everyone has their own perception of beauty. Banning gay marriage would be like banning love/marriage to a person whom "society" does not define "beautiful" enough to get married.

[Bear]

In Iran, becoming a transexual isn't illegal so alot of gay men are lead to believe that they must have been born in the wrong body. So many gay men become transexuals so they can be with a man. Its very sad that these people have t go to such drastic methods to be with whom they love.

[Harwood Butcher]

Firstly, being gay IS a crime in a lot of the world.

I'm not sure if that was in response to my post saying that being gay isn't a crime, but I mainly said that based on the current laws in the US.

Secondly, being gay or straight is not a choice. At all. Trust me - if I could fall in love with a woman my life would be SO much easier. But I just can't - I have zero attraction to them. Do you reckon you could fall in love with a man just because someone else told you to?

However ACTING on your love is a choice. You could choose not to have sex, not to get married. Exactly the same for both straight and gay. However that would be a pretty shit life if you weren't allowed to love anyone at all (since the ones you like are illegal, and you simply dont want the others). Love is the most basic of all human emotions - its the long-term reason behind almost everything we do. If you ban people from loving anyone, you might as well kill them.

Bold: That's what I was getting at. You could "stay in the closet" if you wanted to, which isn't really right, but in comparison to people of other races or gender...they can't really hide from that as easily.

[Gerard]

I understand what you meant. However it seems that you think it is easy to stay in the closet. It isn't, and doing that (even in a country where it is legal) leads to a very high number of suicides.

Consider reversing it like the video I posted - do you think it would be easy to pretend to be gay for your entire life? You would have to go round saying you were gay, act like you were gay, and even pretend to like men (kissing them in public etc). All knowing that if you let anyone find out you liked women at all, everyone might hate you, your family might disown you etc. In certain countries you'd get killed for it.

Ignoring the "right" and "wrong" difference (and any religious difference) between homosexuality and heterosexuality, they aren't much different when you get down to it. There would be no easy way to pretend to be the opposite one,

You are right that it is easier to hide than race or gender - nobody can tell I'm gay unless I tell them. But if a black person could pretend to be white, in order to be socially accepted and have all the same rights, a lot of them probably would, and it wouldn't be a bad thing. If a gay person pretends to be straight forever, it tears them up inside, and like i said - leads to a horrifically high number of teenage gay suicides, or those of closeted adults.

[Harwood Butcher]

I understand what you meant. However it seems that you think it is easy to stay in the closet. It isn't, and doing that (even in a country where it is legal) leads to a very high number of suicides.

Consider reversing it like the video I posted - do you think it would be easy to pretend to be gay for your entire life? You would have to go round saying you were gay, act like you were gay, and even pretend to like men (kissing them in public etc). All knowing that if you let anyone find out you liked women at all, everyone might hate you, your family might disown you etc. In certain countries you'd get killed for it.

Ignoring the "right" and "wrong" difference (and any religious difference) between homosexuality and heterosexuality, they aren't much different when you get down to it. There would be no easy way to pretend to be the opposite one,

You are right that it is easier to hide than race or gender - nobody can tell I'm gay unless I tell them. But if a black person could pretend to be white, in order to be socially accepted and have all the same rights, a lot of them probably would, and it wouldn't be a bad thing. If a gay person pretends to be straight forever, it tears them up inside, and like i said - leads to a horrifically high number of teenage gay suicides, or those of closeted adults.

I totally agree with you. I was just trying to point out one of society's many flaws in logic. Right now we're just getting past the point where it's ok to be different if you have absolutely no control over it. It's sort of hard to explain it, but hopefully you understand it.

[Spaz The Great]

If a gay person pretends to be straight forever, it tears them up inside, and like i said - leads to a horrifically high number of teenage gay suicides, or those of closeted adults.

Not the same, but similar, did you see that movie Prayers for Bobby? People said it looked stupid((lol, I almost said gay XD)), but I thought it was interesting. About a gay teenager who's family and town think he should try to "cure" it through God and he ends up killing himself. And that sparks a change in his mother and the town as a whole. Supposedly based on a true story.

[Franswurst]

If a gay person pretends to be straight forever, it tears them up inside, and like i said - leads to a horrifically high number of teenage gay suicides, or those of closeted adults.

Not the same, but similar, did you see that movie Prayers for Bobby? People said it looked stupid((lol, I almost said gay XD)), but I thought it was interesting. About a gay teenager who's family and town think he should try to "cure" it through God and he ends up killing himself. And that sparks a change in his mother and the town as a whole. Supposedly based on a true story.

Not sure if I've seen parts of the movies or just heard about the real story, but it sounds very familiar. Or maybe thats just because I've heard of a couple of cases where gay teens ended up committing suicide because they couldn't handle the "pressure" of being gay and having to hide it, and live with people condemning them for it, etc.

[azn]

I understand what you meant. However it seems that you think it is easy to stay in the closet. It isn't, and doing that (even in a country where it is legal) leads to a very high number of suicides.

I find it bad that society makes it so it's not right to express and be proud of homosexuality. Doing this is basically saying "Right, you can't kiss your girlfriend/boyfriend in public, you can't touch each other, and any form of desire/passion for each other is not allowed!" It's the same shit as straight couples, who are allowed to kiss, hug and touch in public without being looked down at. The public eye just hasn't seen or experienced enough of it to accept it.

[Harwood Butcher]

I find it bad that society makes it so it's not right to express and be proud of homosexuality. Doing this is basically saying "Right, you can't kiss your girlfriend/boyfriend in public, you can't touch each other, and any form of desire/passion for each other is not allowed!" It's the same shit as straight couples, who are allowed to kiss, hug and touch in public without being looked down at. The public eye just hasn't seen or experienced enough of it to accept it.

Bold: At one point that actually wasn't allowed.

But you're right, since society hasn't been around it enough it's not accepted.

[Thomas.]

Also, I don't think Gay Marriage is right, because it's really just unnatural, and not meant to be that way. I just don't think they should be able to get married. Like I said, marriage is meant to be between a man and a woman. Civil Union or whatever, is fine, just not traditional marriage.

*above quote from raybob95's topic about hating Obama

How do you know that marriage was meant to be between Woman and Man, marriage has been around a long time, how can you prove it was initially meant to be between Woman and Man? An example of this in Africa is that one man marries five people to have sex with them, it has nothing to do with the subject but that is more traditional than what you claim...

And how on earth is being gay unnatural? Animals do it more often than humans, if it's unatural then why do they do it? Dolphins do it, Dogs do it... Nobody has a choice about it, often people get turned on by things that they can't control and you're saying it is wrong to do this thing? Civil Union is indeed fine but Homosexuals are still human and should have equal rights to normal people. Again, why is traditional marriage not all right because the bible says so?

[Pandora]

Personally I see mariage as a holly bond between man and women.

Therefor I think that gay marriages simply aren't right. Fine, live together. But no marriage. They can put their back account and stuff on both their names and stuff, but not marriage..

More like, I'd rather not have them married. But if they must.. beh, fine. I won't lose a minute of sleep on it.

What I do think is just downright wrong is gay couples adopting children.

And with that, I leave this topic. I've probably offended some person... Just to make it clear: that wasn't my intention. Merely answering the question raised by this topic.

[Spaz The Great]

Personally I see mariage as a holly bond between man and women.

Therefor I think that gay marriages simply aren't right. Fine, live together. But no marriage. They can put their back account and stuff on both their names and stuff, but not marriage..

More like, I'd rather not have them married. But if they must.. beh, fine. I won't lose a minute of sleep on it.

What I do think is just downright wrong is gay couples adopting children.

And with that, I leave this topic. I've probably offended some person... Just to make it clear: that wasn't my intention. Merely answering the question raised by this topic.

Without the marriage, they can't have the same benefits as a married couple. THAT, truly, is all they want.

And why shouldn't they adopt? I bet you any reason you can come up with can and will be shot down.

[Connor]

I think kids should really choose which parents they like, no one should be stopped from being parents, unless they're some murderer pedophile.

But I guess, if you're a baby, you're going to have a hard time choosing parents.

[Gerard]

I can understand not liking the idea of gay couples adopting, but to be honest, I don't see the point of banning it.

Imagine two lesbians, both nurses, a stable household with plenty of income, probably the two best parents you will EVER meet. But they are banned from adopting children just because they're both female? That isn't really sensible is it?

Now imagine two straight chavs (white trash) - both age 18 (the minimum age to adopt in some places). A totally unstable household, drugs everywhere, fighting everywhere, parents in and out of prison every week, no education between them, no jobs (living on state welfare/benefits). But because they are the opposite gender to each other, they are allowed to adopt.

Does that make sense to you? Read the Guide to Parenthood.

[Connor]

It doesn't sound good at all, I'd rather have gay parents than that, I wouldn't mind gay parents, as long as they didn't try to influence my sexuality.

[Gerard]

Most gay people have been through HELL to come to terms with their sexuality and come out to family and friends (and continually through life). ANd we've had some shit reactions from small-minded other people. Nobody who has been through that would wish it on anyone else, especially not their own children.

hawt

[_Ray]

OK, don't let gays adopt, and do thorough background checks on those who do adopt, raise the adoption age to at least 24, and only let married couples adopt.

[Gerard]

don't let gays adopt

Why?