Are we in a simulation?

[MrLlamaLlama]

You never directly asked why...you said "what". I even said "We know WHAT causes gravity, but we don't really know WHY it causes gravity."

That was the original question from Wheelman101 - he doesn't understand how gravity is possible or why it works. Sure we have figured out how to use it, and how to calculate it, and figured out what causes it, but not fully how it exerts a force on things far away from it.

There are so many things ridiculous about this whole concept but here's the best one: If the 'beings' knew that we knew that we were a simulation, wouldn't they alter something because that knowledge on our part could change the 'experiment's' outcome?

If it was an experiment, they would probably only change one thing each time, and see how everything reacts. This could be something small like changing people or situations or things like that, or something much larger like how far away the earth is from the sun, or something how strong gravity is, or the distribution of matter and antimatter (there's a lot more matter than antimatter).

If we were a simulation, surely 'they' would know we know... or think... and just wipe our virtual brains so we're none the wiser?

TIP: Make a bigass sign telling 'them' to go die or something and see what happens...

[Gerard]

If this was a simulation, they would be able to be aware of everything that happened. Doesn't mean they're watching everything all the time though. Like in a game, you aren't often watching stuff behind you, and you aren't always there.

OGTAM - do you not understand my question? We don't know how gravity manages to works. We KNOW what it does. We KNOW what affects it. We KNOW how to calculate it. But you haven't explained how it works. You're answering it like "because it does".

You can explain that for almost everything else - a clutch works because the disc presses against the flywheel to get friction; nuclear reactors work by splitting atoms through fission to emit photons in gamma rays; light is visible electromagnetic radiation made up of photons.

But how does gravity exert its effect? There are no particles pushing it, there is no energy transferred upwards, there's no inertia forcing it, so what causes it? Just "because things with mass have gravity" isn't an answer.

[Harwood Butcher]

If this was a simulation, they would be able to be aware of everything that happened. Doesn't mean they're watching everything all the time though. Like in a game, you aren't often watching stuff behind you, and you aren't always there.

OGTAM - do you not understand my question? We don't know how gravity manages to works. We KNOW what it does. We KNOW what affects it. We KNOW how to calculate it. But you haven't explained how it works. You're answering it like "because it does".

You can explain that for almost everything else - a clutch works because the disc presses against the flywheel to get friction; nuclear reactors work by splitting atoms through fission to emit photons in gamma rays; light is visible electromagnetic radiation made up of photons.

But how does gravity exert its effect? There are no particles pushing it, there is no energy transferred upwards, there's no inertia forcing it, so what causes it? Just "because things with mass have gravity" isn't an answer.

With force...

You're giving me all these examples such as "a clutch works because the disc presses against the flywheel to get friction"...so answer as to why it does.

[Gerard]

At least try and include something relevant to the topic in your post.

"With force" - that doesn't explain anything. There isn't anything going above you that pushes you down. There isn't anything that grabs you that pulls you down. There isn't a constant downward flow of waves of energy or particles or anything. The only scientific explanation that fits is that of curved spacetime, which you haven't made any reference to.

You want me to explain how a clutch works. In simple terms - you have two shafts, from from the engine, one to the diff/wheels. Instead of them being joined permenantly, they are pushed together and separated by a clutch, allowing you to disengage the engine whilst its still spinning. Instead of jamming the rods together or using cogs/teeth/splines etc, two discs are pushed together (by the clutch) eventually providing enough friction to turn each other, and being gradual enough to have more control than on/off. Friction works by scraping something onto something else until it moves. Put your hand on a piece of paper and move your hand, and by the power of friction the paper will amazingly move even though it isn't locked into your hand!

Now you go ahead and do the same for gravity if you think you can explain it...

[Harwood Butcher]

At least try and include something relevant to the topic in your post.

"With force" - that doesn't explain anything. There isn't anything going above you that pushes you down. There isn't anything that grabs you that pulls you down. There isn't a constant downward flow of waves of energy or particles or anything. The only scientific explanation that fits is that of curved spacetime, which you haven't made any reference to.

You want me to explain how a clutch works. In simple terms - you have two shafts, from from the engine, one to the diff/wheels. Instead of them being joined permenantly, they are pushed together and separated by a clutch, allowing you to disengage the engine whilst its still spinning. Instead of jamming the rods together or using cogs/teeth/splines etc, two discs are pushed together (by the clutch) eventually providing enough friction to turn each other, and being gradual enough to have more control than on/off. Friction works by scraping something onto something else until it moves. Put your hand on a piece of paper and move your hand, and by the power of friction the paper will amazingly move even though it isn't locked into your hand!

Now you go ahead and do the same for gravity if you think you can explain it...

I never asked you how it works...I asked WHY.

Have you ever heard of dark matter?

[Gerard]

I explained both. Not just the mechanics but also why. If you'd like to understand friction a bit more, try running into a brick wall. You'll find that you slow down somewhat. Or sandpaper your face or something and feel the delightful heating effect

And what has dark matter got to do with universe simulations, gravity or clutches? If you're testing my knowledge of astrophysics, you're way below the mark.

As for simulations, I'm not sure if we could ever figure out that we were in a simulation without direct interaction from the 'creators'. I'm not religious enough to believe such a thing, but it does fall in line with my other theories and beliefs such as no free will, (just conscious decisions, almost like programmed events); no old-man-in-the-sky or heaven and earth; some weird stuff that science can't (yet) explain; full acceptance of current scientific fact (basically how our physics engine works) rather than religions way of dismissing it all as lies in favour of colourful moral stories.

[NotYouHaha]

I think about that time from time, but not very deeply.

[Harwood Butcher]

I explained both. Not just the mechanics but also why. If you'd like to understand friction a bit more, try running into a brick wall. You'll find that you slow down somewhat. Or sandpaper your face or something and feel the delightful heating effect

I know how friction works smart ass(jokes), I'm in a physics class now.

And what has dark matter got to do with universe simulations, gravity or clutches? If you're testing my knowledge of astrophysics, you're way below the mark.

Dark matter could be used as a better example than gravity. At least with gravity you could partly explain it, but the theory of dark matter is absolutely crazy. They got the idea because they found an error in duplicating the universe in a computer program. They found that everything fell apart within a few moments and was in no way the way our universe is. As you mentioned your great knowledge of astrophysics, you should know that a huge chunk of our universe is "missing", which is actually, supposedly, dark matter. I for one find the whole idea bull shit.

As for simulations, I'm not sure if we could ever figure out that we were in a simulation without direct interaction from the 'creators'. I'm not religious enough to believe such a thing, but it does fall in line with my other theories and beliefs such as no free will, (just conscious decisions, almost like programmed events); no old-man-in-the-sky or heaven and earth; some weird stuff that science can't (yet) explain; full acceptance of current scientific fact (basically how our physics engine works) rather than religions way of dismissing it all as lies in favour of colourful moral stories.

So you would rather believe in something that you don't fully understand than having faith in God...

[Spaz The Great]

So you would rather believe in something that you don't fully understand than having faith in God...

I haven't been following this topic except for this page, but I had to point out the irony in saying that it's smarter to believe something you CAN'T prove, than something you can only half prove..... At least he can partially understand the sciences he believes in. I can't understand the concept of a cosmic being that makes billions of creations and lets them all suffer and fuck up his other creations.

[Gerard]

Spaz hit the nail on the head.

There is no proof or anything of God. Okay the fact we exist could be one piece of evidence. Just because some people apparently spoke to him (cos it says so in a book) and others scream on the floor whilst he's chatting to them, doesn't really qualify as hard evidence.

There is no noticeable interaction from any intelligent beings outside the universe. Sure there are some anomalies and strange things we don't understand, but at least science can explain most things that concern us.

Most religions, however, make up crazy explanations for things they dont (yet) understand, then when science comes along and explains how it works, they reject it for hundreds of years, then eventually say "oh no it was only a metaphor" and retract. Things like it rains when god's angry (nothing to do with evaporation or anything), and same with lightening (not friction or electrostatic energy or anything), and floods and rocks and mountains and animals and birds. The great ones are how the sun/moon/stars work, and eclipses and all this stuff. Bullshit TBH.

Religion hasn't provided one solid answer to anything. Sure loads of morals and objectives to live by, and yeah the fear of god stops some people doing stupid things, but it's all bullshit.

Science on the other hand has provided answers for almost everything. The fact that I can talk to people all over the world instantly is all due to us (collectively) understanding science in stupid detail. I look for a scientific reason for a lot of things, and understanding how/why something works is the best way for me to figure out how to use it effectively (eg a clutch).

[Harwood Butcher]

"Hit the nail on the head" my ass. I never said anything about proving God right or wrong. I'm talking about having faith in God. There's a slight difference.

You're saying that there isn't any evidence about there being a God, but your on here saying that we're in a simulation...

Yeah, science could prove things to an extent, but if we're having trouble explaining gravity then how are we supposed to explain the existence of God, which at this point we could only have faith in and believe that there is a God.

How is God or Jesus a metaphor? Jesus was an actual person and there are even decedents of Jesus. Do you find it a coincidence that there was some sort of disturbance (Earthquake) when Jesus died?

If you ridicule me for my beliefs then you're just a fucking jackass and need to let people believe what they want to believe.

Edited March 17, 2008 by Original GTA Master

[MishoM]

OGTAM, you can keep arguing, just don't start calling people "Fucking jackasses" and what-not, I know you're just pissed off and you said "If" so you really may not have meant it, but just keep it clean.

[chris82]

If you ridicule me for my beliefs then you're just a fucking jackass and need to let people believe what they want to believe.

Believe what you will but explain this.

[Harwood Butcher]

If you ridicule me for my beliefs then you're just a fucking jackass and need to let people believe what they want to believe.

Believe what you will but explain this.

Don't you pay attention to anything I say???

I told you that I don't go by everything the bible says. I go by the Old Testament more than anything.

EDIT: Why do you want me to keep trying to explain things to you? Do you want to try and change my mind or do you want to have faith??? It's one of the two.

EDIT EDIT:...or you're just being a jackass...

Edited March 17, 2008 by Original GTA Master

[Connor]

I have to say that in my opinion, the universe was created by anything but God.

[chris82]

If you ridicule me for my beliefs then you're just a fucking jackass and need to let people believe what they want to believe.

Believe what you will but explain this.

Don't you pay attention to anything I say???

I told you that I don't go by everything the bible says. I go by the Old Testament more than anything.

EDIT: Why do you want me to keep trying to explain things to you? Do you want to try and change my mind or do you want to have faith??? It's one of the two.

EDIT EDIT:...or you're just being a jackass...

Pretty sure that page I linked includes the old testament but then again I'm not sure how you can exactly call yourself a Christian (and listen to the Vatican over a part of the Bible).

What I'm asking is how can you believe in Christianity after seeing that page?

Yes a jackass, keep calling people that, it's a very original insult and gets you very far, especially when you say it to multiple staff members.

[Harwood Butcher]

If you ridicule me for my beliefs then you're just a fucking jackass and need to let people believe what they want to believe.

Believe what you will but explain this.

Don't you pay attention to anything I say???

I told you that I don't go by everything the bible says. I go by the Old Testament more than anything.

EDIT: Why do you want me to keep trying to explain things to you? Do you want to try and change my mind or do you want to have faith??? It's one of the two.

EDIT EDIT:...or you're just being a jackass...

Pretty sure that page I linked includes the old testament but then again I'm not sure how you can exactly call yourself a Christian (and listen to the Vatican over a part of the Bible).

What I'm asking is how can you believe in Christianity after seeing that page?

Yes a jackass, keep calling people that, it's a very original insult and gets you very far, especially when you say it to multiple staff members.

When did I directly call you a jackass? I said that you were either trying to change my opinion, trying to gain some faith in God or you're just trying to be a jackass...I gave you the option. You just pin point every bad thing I say and turn it into a bitch fest.

I'm not gonna post in here anymore, you guys are pissing me off. So if you have anything to say then just PM me or be a douche by continuing to post shit about me in here.

[Gerard]

Stop taking this personally. To be frank, my non-belief in god is nothing to do with you, and it isn't going to be you that changes it. Just like your apparent belief in God is nothing to do with me, and I'm not trying to change it. I'm explaining why I don't believe, in the context of the possibility of this being a simulation.

"Hit the nail on the head" my ass. I never said anything about proving God right or wrong. I'm talking about having faith in God. There's a slight difference.

You're saying that there isn't any evidence about there being a God, but your on here saying that we're in a simulation...

Yeah, science could prove things to an extent, but if we're having trouble explaining gravity then how are we supposed to explain the existence of God, which at this point we could only have faith in and believe that there is a God.

How is God or Jesus a metaphor? Jesus was an actual person and there are even decedents of Jesus. Do you find it a coincidence that there was some sort of disturbance (Earthquake) when Jesus died?

If you ridicule me for my beliefs then you're just a fucking jackass and need to let people believe what they want to believe.

He hit my belief and the reasons for it on the head. I don't believe in god because the evidence is unscientific and unsupported, and because religious people tend to not care about science as much.

I'm not saying that we are in a simulation - I'm simply discussing the possibility. I have come to the conclusion that there isn't a god, but we might be in a simulation. Feel free to disagree. Feel free to provide evidence to the contrary.

I didn't say God or Jesus was a metaphor, just a lot of bible stories are. Think of all the parables and old testament stories - some people take the bible literally a think that there was a flood and a boat, there was 5 loaves and 5 fishes etc etc; whilst others take it less literally and say "its just a metaphor for the power of god" and stuff.

On simpler terms, take scientific fact. The bible makes no reference to undiscovered parts of the world. It makes no mention of the earth being round and spinning. It makes no mention of the naturally occurring causes of rain It DOES make mention to the sun rising above the earth and all these sorts of

So Jesus was an actual person? Did you meet him? Any photographs? Did you witness any miracles? Is there any scientific record of anything amazing he did? If he turned some mountains into the shape of his name that would have been cool, and proved something. I don't believe he was the son of God just because a pro-religious book says so, and pro-religious people say so.

There is NO scientific FACT that says God DEFINITELY exists. Okay, that's why they call it faith, great, but I won't believe until I know. And just to make a point, what makes Christianity correct and all other religions wrong? "Because it really happened" isn't good enough.

Back to scientific fact - there are loads of earthquakes every day. Check out these maps. So yes, coincidence. A natural event, totally unconnected to some dude in the middle east. A lot of religious explanation is trying to pass off natural events as made by God.

This is MY experience and interpretation of religion (all of em) trying to claim everything as being done by their god/gods:

"It's raining" "OMG ITS A SIGN, WE HAVE SINNED"

"Oh look the river's a bit high today" "OMG GOD'S GOING TO DROWN OUR FIRST BORNS IN DISGUST"

"Look a pretty bird's in the garden" "OMG GOD LOVES ME"

"Look that girl has four legs, must be a parasitic twin" "OMG ITS THE GODDESS LAKSHMI OR SOMETHIN"

"I feel sick, think it was that pizza" "OMG ITS A PLAGUE!! LETS GO OUT AND SACRIFICE A COW"

Nobody should take offence by that, it's just how I see the world. All the replies are true, it is what various religious people do say. Rain isn't anything to do with god, it's just evaporation, condensation and gravity. Rivers get high after it rains a lot. Birds sometimes like going into gardens, for food n stuff. The parasitic twin is actually fairly obvious if you saw the girl. I should have cooked the pizza a bit more. Nothing to do with god.

I don't see how I was ridiculing anyone for anything? I'm not going to use this topic to attempt to disprove the bible or persuade anyone that it isn't true - I'm merely explaining why I don't believe it, and why I think there's a higher chance of us being in a simulation than being overseen by an old man in the sky.

Feel free to disagree with what I've said - disprove it, provide evidence to the contrary, or simply state that you think differently. Try not to swear at me though.

[chris82]

You just pin point every bad thing I say and turn it into a bitch fest.

I'm not gonna post in here anymore, you guys are pissing me off. So if you have anything to say then just PM me or be a douche by continuing to post shit about me in here.

Yes, one sentence and a link is a total bitch fest.

And the people using facts, reason, and other logical elements aren't being douches, you're mad because they're they're stating their beliefs and you're not defending yours.

[Sherman]

Alright ladies, lets tone it down a bit. I really don't think anyone is trying to bash anyone in here. Stating their beliefs doesn't exactly mean they're putting you down as wrong, they just don't believe in what you do. Which is perfectly fine, I let you believe in what you do, and you let me do the same.

I suppose that's halfway what the theory of "simulation" is, between Gods and beings much more powerful than us (Which to me is around the same thing, in simple form.) Faith can only go so far in people who don't have it in the certain subject, that explains why someone who is bringing religion into play isn't getting but so far. I believe if I had to guess, that half the active forum users are Godless of some sort.

I don't want any dissing of any sort going on in this part of the forum, or any parts for that matter. It's interesting to read the reasoning behind everyone, the religious and non. It's just difficult to discuss on the same level of whether it's possible or not to happen, because both are very different.

I know Gerard has strong opinions about religion, but if you believe in it, no doubt, then I don't think it should really bother you. Anyone that's posted in this topic, or just a lurker - maybe even a random guest. I'm not going to slap anyone on the wrists and tell them to stop, unless they're repeatedly shoving down your throat.

If people question why you do what you do - explain to them why, let them see why you believe what you believe. Not just some opinion and no reasoning to back it up, that's silly. I want this to be good discussion about a (imo) pretty interesting subject, I've never heard of it before. It's a place for the more mature people to have discussion about big things. If you can't handle it, just leave.

NOTE: This was just a rant, going off some of what's been said, and some was what came to mind. I'm not pointing out on anyone (Except for Gerard, cos he's a hoebag) I just needed to get some things clear.

.. Continue (;

[Spaz The Great]

If you ridicule me for my beliefs then you're just a fucking jackass and need to let people believe what they want to believe.

Believe what you will but explain this.

EDIT: Why do you want me to keep trying to explain things to you? Do you want to try and change my mind or do you want to have faith??? It's one of the two.

EDIT EDIT:...or you're just being a jackass...

We((non-Christians)) ask you((Christian)) to explain things in your belief((Christianity)) that we((non-Christians)) do not understand because we expect you((Christian)) to have a better understanding of them. If you cannot explain to us our doubts or confusions, we cannot understand your belief.

When did I directly call you a jackass? I said that you were either trying to change my opinion, trying to gain some faith in God or you're just trying to be a jackass...I gave you the option. You just pin point every bad thing I say and turn it into a bitch fest.

I'm not gonna post in here anymore, you guys are pissing me off. So if you have anything to say then just PM me or be a douche by continuing to post shit about me in here.

You didn't give us the full options. What if our reasoning is to just further understand Christianity? You're denying us that because the questioning is pissing you off? And why is it pissing you off? Because you have no answers?

[tilly]

I always used to think that I was the only real living thing in the world and that everybody else was there just to test me for some higher authority that nobody knew about.

Because really, your you, how do you know somebody else are actually them.

Hmmmm...

[Gerard]

Spaz is back on form.

As for tilly - Yeah I've had a few discussions to that effect too. Scary thought.

And Truman Show FTW...

[Connor]

I've thought that I'm being tested too. Sometimes I've had the urge to go up to someone and just say, "Give it up now".

[sibraa5]

Maybe we're just test subjects..

I wonder though, how can anyone get an Earth this big? Like..I dunno, over 20 million people..to use this simulation...Even if we were being controlled by some advances race, they wouldn't get something this big right?, with this many testers/players..etc..etc..