Openly Gay?

[kermit]

I support the don't ask, don't tell. Why? Because I spent many years in the Military. I was a proud member of Uncle Sams Canoe Club (USN). Did we have gays in the navy? Yes! but they never openly talked about it, and they never hit on any crew members. We all got along just fine, there was no tension or what ever. We all just did our jobs to protect the USA. So Why go open? What is this insatiable desire to tell others that your gay? More to the point, Why do you think we care? Specific to the Military, What does "openly" mean? Do you want to add a splash of pink to your uniform? Would you like a rainbow pattern painted on the walls of the bunker that your lying in with an M-16 assault rifle and praying that the other guys(enemy) don't toss in a grenade. The simple facts are these. There are some basic rules for ALL military personal.

We wear a Uniform. They all look alike period.

We do not have relationships with other soldiers in our command.

We do not engage in sexual activity while on duty.

We do not engage in sexual activity in the workplace.

We do not while in the performance of our duties, kiss, hold hands, fondle, and or fraternize with another member of the military.

taking all of this into account. Where do you see a benefit in telling your captain that your gay? WHY FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, ARE YOU INCAPABLE OF UNDERSTANDING THE FACT THAT WE KNOW YOUR GAY, WE'RE NOT STUPID. WE JUST DON'T CARE. DO YOUR JOB WEAR THE UNIFORM, AND SHUT-UP....BECAUSE WE DON'T CARE.IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE IN OUR LIVES.

[Mpilk901]

Right ok first just chill the fuck out.

What makes you say that all gays "want to add a splash of pink to their uniform"? What's wrong with telling someone that your gay? It's nothing different from you telling someone your straight is it? Why do I care that your straight eh? Is it some sort of defence to make you seem manly? Because that's the impression your giving me, that you think all gays are poofs who like rainbows and the colour pink.

And what makes you think we care about your opinion? Why do we care that your straight? As you said, "IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE IN OUR LIVES."

[kermit]

I agree with you, you should not care if I am straight, that's why I never march in a parade celebrating the fact, That's why I have never went in to my boss's office to inform him of my sexual preference, that why I have never been involved in a lawsuit that allows me to for whatever godforsaken reason I would do it in the first place, tell my employer my sexual preference. No I do not think all gays want a splash of pink, I said we had gay folks on the ship and that we all got along just fine. The thing is I am completely accepting of gays, in the work place, or wherever they choose to be. I support gay marriage, I support gay rights. My basic fundamental question is why do we need all this fanfare. Are we not all created equal, does not the constitution already give equal rights to all citizens of the US. You are just another human living in this world and doing your best to provide for your family.

Why do I need to ask your sexual preference when hiring you to work. What job are you applying for that the subject might come up? I mean lets just look at it your working as a widget installer on the Assembly line at the whatchamightcallit factory. your job is to grab the widget lay it on a foundation an solder it in place. you been doing the job for ten years, do you really think that your sexual preference has anything what so ever to do with that job, I honestly just can not figure out why a persons sexual preference would be an issue at 99.9% of the jobs in this country. Now just for the record. I absolutely can promise you that I will never, never walk up to another human being and just announce that I am straight. because; guess what? that person probable does not care.

[MrLlamaLlama]

why do we need all this fanfare

Because not everybody is as accepting of our inherent differences as you.

WHY FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, ARE YOU INCAPABLE OF UNDERSTANDING THE FACT THAT WE KNOW YOUR GAY

Gay... really is not an aesthetic value. I have a friend whom I had known for several years before learning he was homosexual. Nobody would have guessed it, he was the straightest seeming guy around. Gay is not what you see on tv, nor a stereotype, THE stereotype formed by society.

There are too many points in your argument to pick out individually, a lot of it's pretty hypocritical and makes you sound like an utter bigot.

If someone you know approaches you and states that they're a homosexual, you can just as easily choose to ignore that. By kicking up a fuss you're facilitating their alleged behaviour, creating a song and dance (or is that a bit 'gay'?) about it makes you just as 'guilty' as them.

'I don't like it when gays are all up in my face about their sexuality'

I don't like it when people criticize others who are simply trying to avoid social faux pas and misunderstandings and make an attempt to engage with their fellow people.

I mean lets just look at it your working as a widget installer on the Assembly line at the whatchamightcallit factory. your job is to grab the widget lay it on a foundation an solder it in place. you been doing the job for ten years, do you really think that your sexual preference has anything what so ever to do with that job, I honestly just can not figure out why a persons sexual preference would be an issue at 99.9% of the jobs in this country.

Maybe you're sick of how your fellow workers go on about poofters, faggots or queers, or how that girl in accounting has a sweet ass. It's a fact of life that these things are said in the workplace, and if you're offended by them, your boss has the right to know why, and you have the responsibility to tell him.

Inb4shitstorm.

[Gerard]

I wonder whether you actually know any gay people, or just believe what you see on TV.

I've never been in a gay pride march or anything like that. I don't wear pink, I don't sing or dance, I'm not a hairdresser or a model, I don't have a camp voice, I don't do anything sterotypically gay. The only gay thing I do is have a boyfriend, and even then I don't flaunt him around everywhere or do inappropriate things in public.

However, that doesn't mean I'm treated the same as a straight person.

I should be able to kiss my boyfriend in public, just like a straight couple can, but I can't because at the very least I'd get funny looks and tuts, but I could realistically get beaten up or even killed for it. It happens.

I should be able to marry my boyfriend, should we decide to do that, just like a straight couple can. But I can't. Nor can we adopt children, have the same rights, or have the same tax benefits that straight couples can.

If I tell someone I'm gay, I quite often get told "please don't hit on me". That drives me INSANE! Do straight guys hit on every girl they see just because they like women? No. Just because I like guys (not girls) doesnt mean I like you. In fact, the chances are you're incredibly ugly to me and I can't wait to look somewhere else.

And let's not forget the sterotypes of promiscuity, sexual deviancy and being disease ridden. Most gay people have LESS sex than straight people because they can't come out at school/college/work and they struggle to find someone else gay. In San Francisco I think sexually active gay people are fractionally more likely to have HIV/AIDS, but I don't, and I wish people wouldn't ask if I do.

Although you seem to understand that it doesn't make a difference to our job, you seem to think we want to make everything pink and gay. That's not the case.

Just in case you were wondering, I was in the military, and I am a police officer.

I agree that there's no point in telling everyone you meet. I never told my colleagues at work, because it wasn't relevant. But I shouldn't have to lie about it.

I shouldn't have to pretend to stare at breasts, and answer questions about which intern I'd like to bend over the photocopier. I should be able to tell people "well actually I like guys, not girl", just like "well actually I like blondes, not brunettes". If it is relevant, I should be able to tell people, and it shouldn't be a big deal. I shouldn't be forced to listen to people talking about fags and queers like we're all a bunch of rapists and pedophiles without being able to speak up.

But thanks to people like you, I have to lie.

Some people deal with this opression by going out on big parades. Some people flaunt their sexuality in their attire and demeanour. I just get on with it, and try to change peoples attitudes positively.

So stop treating us as all the same, all one community, all fitting the stereotype, all working together to turn the world pink. Please don't assume that I'm going to rape your children or dance my way to the bar to buy a girly cocktail. We're not the same.

[Connor]

I believe there's no reason for anyone to feel uncomfortable in regards to fraternizing with homosexual people in the army, gay people don't bum you in your sleep, rapists do. It's likely to come up in conversation at some point and people should have the right to express themselves.

Edited October 7, 2010 by Connor

[Ivan]

I dunno, it must be kind of a big burden for someone to carry such a secret, it shouldn't be but it is. If I had a gay friend and if telling me about his sexuality made him feel better then why not? Everyone's got the right to express themselves as long as they're not asssholes about it.

Also, for someone who doesn't care you sure seem pissed. If it makes no difference then why make this shitty rant?

[MK47]

Gerard you just gained my ultimate respect for life.

Edited October 9, 2010 by MK47

[Chris]

Quite an extreme rant there, kermit. Some might say you're overdoing the anti-homosexual vibe a bit - you should be careful, the cynical among us might think you're a closeted homosexual trying to give the impression he is straight...

Either that or you're a Republican and/or massive homophobe. In which case I don't think you'll last long here, so enjoy your time here while it lasts

[The Bossman]

Although I find it very annoying to see openly gay people on TV/the street/wherever, anyone should be able to join the military because we're all equal as human beings. BTW, you say you support don't ask don't tell, but you didn't vote for it, so why mention it?.. Seems a bit stupid on your part.

It makes me want to hide in a hole when I see an openly gay performance anywhere, it frankly disgusts me. I wouldn't say anything to them, but it makes me want to cut my eyes out. I'm just being honest, but I find it horrible.

[Gerard]

Although I find it very annoying to see openly gay people on TV/the street/wherever...

It makes me want to hide in a hole when I see an openly gay performance anywhere, it frankly disgusts me. I wouldn't say anything to them, but it makes me want to cut my eyes out. I'm just being honest, but I find it horrible.

I can (sort of) understand disagreeing with homosexuality, many people do, but making you want to cut your eyes out? That's harsh.

What do you mean by an "openly gay performance"? Are you suggesting that everyone who is openly gay is like this? Because that's just not true. Even 99% of the people who you can TELL are gay aren't anything like that.

What about "straight-acting" gays like me? Do I disgust you just by existing? Would you refuse to talk to me just because you know? Would you vomit on me if I did this with my partner in a monogamous long-term and very normal relationship?

[kermit]

OK. I get the point, I realize that Gays are not treated as well as they should be. Please keep in mind that the original Statement was intended Specific to Military members. I had no intentions of implying that Gays had an easy row to hoe in the civilian world. That was my fault for using non military examples. I should have keep all of my statements in the proper perspective. Seriously the way gay couples are treated in public is absolutely horrific. Gays have every right to be themselves, without criticism. However (you knew there would be one) Military members and military members only simply cannot be "openly" gay while in the performance of their assigned duties. For exactly the same reason Straight couples cannot be for lack of a better word "openly" straight. There is NO sexual activity on a military unit Straight, gay, or otherwise. With the exception of base housing, which you don't go to until after work. Just so you know only about 10% of soldiers get to live on base. I guess the bottom line is really the saddest thing of all.

1. There is no benefit for the homosexual military member, nothing what so ever will change as far as the day to day routine of his or her life. They will still be required to follow the rules of the UCMJ.(Uniform code of military justice) which just for the record supersedes the Constitutional rights of a military member. As a soldier you do not have any of the freedoms of which you swore to forsake your own life in order to protect for others.

2. Here it is the bottom line. As harsh as this sounds, I am shamed to write this about the organization that I so proudly served. The majority of other soldiers will not trust a homosexual to have their back when the gravy hits the fan.

When the bullets are flying and the bad guys are advancing fast, Will there be the unity that's required for that team to come home? You have the right to serve, Thank God for your courage, but does it have to be "Openly"?

[Chris]

Kermit, thank you for clarifying your position. But why are you still sexualising everything?

You keep bringing sexual activity into this discussion when it's completely irrelevant. Just because someone is gay does not mean they are going to constantly be wanting to fuck other men just because they are surrounded by them all the time. That's extremely retarded thinking.

It is possibly for someone to be openly gay and NOT want sexual activity with any particular person around them. Same thing if you're "openly straight" and you go into a line of work predominantly done by females, say nursing for example - does not mean you are sexually attracted to everyone you work with.

The point is, WHY is this even a discussion? What does it matter one's sexual orientation is related to his line of work?

[Gerard]

You're saying someones sexuality should be secret because it's not related to their work in the military.

Given that, all soldiers should be banned from talking about their wives/girlfriends and children.

Those things are equally unrelated and might upset other people, such as those who don't have wives/girlfriends/children, or homosexuals.

Or are you saying its fine for straight people to talk about whatever they want and disgust gay people; but it should be illegal for gay people to talk about what they want if it disgusts anyone straight?

[The Bossman]

Although I find it very annoying to see openly gay people on TV/the street/wherever...

It makes me want to hide in a hole when I see an openly gay performance anywhere, it frankly disgusts me. I wouldn't say anything to them, but it makes me want to cut my eyes out. I'm just being honest, but I find it horrible.

I can (sort of) understand disagreeing with homosexuality, many people do, but making you want to cut your eyes out? That's harsh.

What do you mean by an "openly gay performance"? Are you suggesting that everyone who is openly gay is like this? Because that's just not true. Even 99% of the people who you can TELL are gay aren't anything like that.

What about "straight-acting" gays like me? Do I disgust you just by existing? Would you refuse to talk to me just because you know? Would you vomit on me if I did this with my partner in a monogamous long-term and very normal relationship?

Let me clarify what I said, I missed a few things out. One specific example I can refer to is the X Factor, right, with the act called Diva Fever. Watching their performance was basically a hide behind the sofa moment, and I don't know why it provokes that reaction from me. For those who are in the US, let me describe what their act was. They came out in shiny pink and purple suits, with a few similar backing dancers. They then took their trousers off to reveal a tight fitting pair of shorts, multicoloured, and the backing dancers movements were suggestive too. It just made me uncomfortable, and I'm like that around every gay person.

It's only the people who are openly gay who snog their partner in public when it annoys me, or when it's shown on TV. I just don't want to see it.

I have nothing against you or any other gay person, it's just the flamboyant openly gay people that irritate and annoy me.

[Gerard]

There are three completely different things in this.

1) Camp, flamboyant people - they can be annoying to me too. The people who wear pink spandex and have camp voices and are obsessed with clothes/makeup etc. I don't identify with that AT ALL, and it has NOTHING to do with homosexuality.

2) People who are unnecessarily sexual in public - things like kissing madly or groping or being suggestive, slapping people's bums and that type of thing. That's just creepy. I don't want to see old people or fat people kissing in public, nor two women, just like you dont want to see two men kissing.

3) People who are gay - they come in all different types, just like straight people.

Some gay people are camp, most are not. Some straight people are camp, most are not. Homosexuality has nothing to do with those things.

[Nate10]

Although I find it very annoying to see openly gay people on TV/the street/wherever...

It makes me want to hide in a hole when I see an openly gay performance anywhere, it frankly disgusts me. I wouldn't say anything to them, but it makes me want to cut my eyes out. I'm just being honest, but I find it horrible.

I can (sort of) understand disagreeing with homosexuality, many people do, but making you want to cut your eyes out? That's harsh.

What do you mean by an "openly gay performance"? Are you suggesting that everyone who is openly gay is like this? Because that's just not true. Even 99% of the people who you can TELL are gay aren't anything like that.

What about "straight-acting" gays like me? Do I disgust you just by existing? Would you refuse to talk to me just because you know? Would you vomit on me if I did this with my partner in a monogamous long-term and very normal relationship?

Let me clarify what I said, I missed a few things out. One specific example I can refer to is the X Factor, right, with the act called Diva Fever. Watching their performance was basically a hide behind the sofa moment, and I don't know why it provokes that reaction from me. For those who are in the US, let me describe what their act was. They came out in shiny pink and purple suits, with a few similar backing dancers. They then took their trousers off to reveal a tight fitting pair of shorts, multicoloured, and the backing dancers movements were suggestive too. It just made me uncomfortable, and I'm like that around every gay person.

It's only the people who are openly gay who snog their partner in public when it annoys me, or when it's shown on TV. I just don't want to see it.

I have nothing against you or any other gay person, it's just the flamboyant openly gay people that irritate and annoy me.

Bold: You say you have nothing against any gay person, but right afterwards you explain that you're irritated and annoyed by flamboyant openly gay people.

Unless you are also irritated and annoyed by campy straight people and open asexuals/bisexuals/heterosexuals/homosexuals/etc. you just sound a little homophobic or insecure or something seeing men acting different than your preconceived notions/society's labels of male's.

As for the OP, yeah, I'm interested in your opinions on people being open about their sexuality(if it's not gay) like Gerard was getting at. You say you don't care if someone's a homosexual, but it seems blatant that you do.

[The Bossman]

Although I find it very annoying to see openly gay people on TV/the street/wherever...

It makes me want to hide in a hole when I see an openly gay performance anywhere, it frankly disgusts me. I wouldn't say anything to them, but it makes me want to cut my eyes out. I'm just being honest, but I find it horrible.

I can (sort of) understand disagreeing with homosexuality, many people do, but making you want to cut your eyes out? That's harsh.

What do you mean by an "openly gay performance"? Are you suggesting that everyone who is openly gay is like this? Because that's just not true. Even 99% of the people who you can TELL are gay aren't anything like that.

What about "straight-acting" gays like me? Do I disgust you just by existing? Would you refuse to talk to me just because you know? Would you vomit on me if I did this with my partner in a monogamous long-term and very normal relationship?

Let me clarify what I said, I missed a few things out. One specific example I can refer to is the X Factor, right, with the act called Diva Fever. Watching their performance was basically a hide behind the sofa moment, and I don't know why it provokes that reaction from me. For those who are in the US, let me describe what their act was. They came out in shiny pink and purple suits, with a few similar backing dancers. They then took their trousers off to reveal a tight fitting pair of shorts, multicoloured, and the backing dancers movements were suggestive too. It just made me uncomfortable, and I'm like that around every gay person.

It's only the people who are openly gay who snog their partner in public when it annoys me, or when it's shown on TV. I just don't want to see it.

I have nothing against you or any other gay person, it's just the flamboyant openly gay people that irritate and annoy me.

Bold: You say you have nothing against any gay person, but right afterwards you explain that you're irritated and annoyed by flamboyant openly gay people.

Unless you are also irritated and annoyed by campy straight people and open asexuals/bisexuals/heterosexuals/homosexuals/etc. you just sound a little homophobic or insecure or something seeing men acting different than your preconceived notions/society's labels of male's.

As for the OP, yeah, I'm interested in your opinions on people being open about their sexuality(if it's not gay) like Gerard was getting at. You say you don't care if someone's a homosexual, but it seems blatant that you do.

I kind of knew that you'd jump into the debate as well.

It's just the flamboyant homosexuals who kiss in public that offend me, and not any other type of homosexuality. At no point did I SAY that ANY type of gay person OFFENDED me. I said only FLAMBOYANT GAY PEOPLE OFFEND ME.

[Nate10]

Although I find it very annoying to see openly gay people on TV/the street/wherever...

It makes me want to hide in a hole when I see an openly gay performance anywhere, it frankly disgusts me. I wouldn't say anything to them, but it makes me want to cut my eyes out. I'm just being honest, but I find it horrible.

I can (sort of) understand disagreeing with homosexuality, many people do, but making you want to cut your eyes out? That's harsh.

What do you mean by an "openly gay performance"? Are you suggesting that everyone who is openly gay is like this? Because that's just not true. Even 99% of the people who you can TELL are gay aren't anything like that.

What about "straight-acting" gays like me? Do I disgust you just by existing? Would you refuse to talk to me just because you know? Would you vomit on me if I did this with my partner in a monogamous long-term and very normal relationship?

Let me clarify what I said, I missed a few things out. One specific example I can refer to is the X Factor, right, with the act called Diva Fever. Watching their performance was basically a hide behind the sofa moment, and I don't know why it provokes that reaction from me. For those who are in the US, let me describe what their act was. They came out in shiny pink and purple suits, with a few similar backing dancers. They then took their trousers off to reveal a tight fitting pair of shorts, multicoloured, and the backing dancers movements were suggestive too. It just made me uncomfortable, and I'm like that around every gay person.

It's only the people who are openly gay who snog their partner in public when it annoys me, or when it's shown on TV. I just don't want to see it.

I have nothing against you or any other gay person, it's just the flamboyant openly gay people that irritate and annoy me.

Bold: You say you have nothing against any gay person, but right afterwards you explain that you're irritated and annoyed by flamboyant openly gay people.

Unless you are also irritated and annoyed by campy straight people and open asexuals/bisexuals/heterosexuals/homosexuals/etc. you just sound a little homophobic or insecure or something seeing men acting different than your preconceived notions/society's labels of male's.

As for the OP, yeah, I'm interested in your opinions on people being open about their sexuality(if it's not gay) like Gerard was getting at. You say you don't care if someone's a homosexual, but it seems blatant that you do.

I kind of knew that you'd jump into the debate as well.

It's just the flamboyant homosexuals who kiss in public that offend me, and not any other type of homosexuality. At no point did I SAY that ANY type of gay person OFFENDED me. I said only FLAMBOYANT GAY PEOPLE OFFEND ME.

Never said you're offended by all types of gay people, just pointed out how you contradicted yourself saying that you're not offended by any gay person, but are offended by openly gay people. Not sure if it was only a typo on your part, or you just think for some odd reason that flamboyant open homosexuals aren't homosexuals.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Nate10

[Ivan]

I get what you're saying now bossman, but your first post definitely gave the wrong idea man.

[kermit]

Chris: What you say makes sense. The problem I am having is that I am apparently unable to fathom the definition of "OPENLY" as it would apply to a Military member. You say it has nothing to do with sexuality, another says it has nothing to do with being flamboyant, or wanting a splash of pink. So.........What is it? What is one thing that will change in a Soldiers day to day life by being "openly gay?" What is one thing that he/she may expect to be better for him/her by being "openly gay?" What exactly are the Positive benefits and do they outweigh the Negative consequences of being "openly gay?" That's all I'm asking. Again, this has nothing to do with real world issues. I absolute support gay rights in every aspect but with this one exception. In this one case, I think the gay community is causing a bigger problem for gays in the military by forcing the issue. I think they should back off this one and seriously look at the possible Negative consequences of their actions.

[Nate10]

Chris: What you say makes sense. The problem I am having is that I am apparently unable to fathom the definition of "OPENLY" as it would apply to a Military member. You say it has nothing to do with sexuality, another says it has nothing to do with being flamboyant, or wanting a splash of pink. So.........What is it? What is one thing that will change in a Soldiers day to day life by being "openly gay?" What is one thing that he/she may expect to be better for him/her by being "openly gay?" What exactly are the Positive benefits and do they outweigh the Negative consequences of being "openly gay?" That's all I'm asking. Again, this has nothing to do with real world issues. I absolute support gay rights in every aspect but with this one exception. In this one case, I think the gay community is causing a bigger problem for gays in the military by forcing the issue. I think they should back off this one and seriously look at the possible Negative consequences of their actions.

You're implying that gays are being open about it in the military for positive rewards, but who are you to think that because frankly it's a little delusional to generalize something like that. Maybe they're just saying it for the sake of it, just like you and others would about a piece of ass thus showing your own sexuality.

As for the negative aspect of being openly gay in the military, be aware that the negativity is a result of not the homosexual itself, but the others in the military.

[The Bossman]

lol, usually when I look back at what I've typed during a debate, it's usually 'WHY THE FACK DID I TYPE THAT, IT MAKES NO SENSE' and it's the same here. It just takes me a while to get to the point.

[Nate10]

lol, usually when I look back at what I've typed during a debate, it's usually 'WHY THE FACK DID I TYPE THAT, IT MAKES NO SENSE' and it's the same here. It just takes me a while to get to the point.

No harm no foul dude - happens to the best of us.

[Husky]

Why can't Patriots troll someplace else...